• Understand Risk Management – Risk management is a continuous process of identifying, assessing, and mitigating risks to achieve organisational goals.
• Proactive Approach – Adopt a forward-looking mindset to anticipate potential challenges before they materialise.

• Use Diverse Methods – Conduct regular brainstorming sessions with cross-functional teams. Leverage historical data and past experiences to spot patterns. Stay informed about industry trends and emerging risks.
• Categorise Risks – Separate risks into internal (e.g., operational inefficiencies) and external (e.g., economic downturns). Group by impact level: strategic, financial, reputational, or compliance.

• Prioritise Risks – Use a risk matrix to evaluate probability versus impact. Focus on high-probability and high-impact risks first.
• Quantify Risks – Assign monetary or operational values where possible. Involve stakeholders to validate assessments.

• Develop Response Plans – Preventive strategies: Introduce controls to reduce likelihood. Contingency plans: Have backup strategies ready for critical scenarios.
• Monitor Mitigation Efforts – Establish clear KPIs to measure success. Conduct regular reviews and refine strategies as needed.

• Promote Transparency – Share risk information openly with all relevant stakeholders. Foster a culture where raising risk concerns is encouraged and rewarded.
• Leverage Technology – Implement tools to streamline reporting and centralise risk data. Use dashboards for real-time updates and analysis.

• Conduct Post-Assessments – After risk events, assess what went well and what could improve. Document lessons learned for future reference.
• Invest in Training – Provide team members with ongoing education on risk management techniques. Host regular workshops to reinforce best practices.

• Leadership’s Role – Encourage senior leaders to champion risk management initiatives. Align risk strategies with overall organisational objectives.
• Flexibility and Adaptability – Be prepared to pivot strategies as risks evolve. Build resilient systems that can handle unexpected disruptions.
• Documentation and Accountability – Maintain thorough documentation of risk processes and decisions. Assign clear ownership for each identified risk and mitigation plan.
• Quarterly Risk Reviews – Schedule quarterly risk reviews to keep strategies relevant and actionable. Continuously monitor the external environment for emerging risks.
• Balance Risk and Innovation – Balance risk-taking with innovation to drive growth while safeguarding assets.

Morning, everybody, and thank you very much for joining us, today for our risk management webinar. I’m very pleased to welcome one of our, very, very, very special guests, which I’ll introduce later on, but we are very, very lucky to have him join us today. So, this is something a little bit different, something that we’ve had planned for a while. Obviously, we had to delay the date, and we’ll go into that a little bit in more detail. But we really appreciate you, you joining us for the first webinar in our series for twenty twenty five.

Like I said, a little bit of a different session. We’re trying not to scare you too much today. In fact, quite the opposite.

And when you, get to meet our special guest, I think he’ll fill everybody with the world of confidence.

So would not be, would not be one of our sessions without introducing everybody. So Chris is, moderating the session. He’s behind the scenes. He’ll be handling your questions.

Feel free to, ask plenty of questions. You know we love those. Obviously, myself, you would have met me before. Hopefully, you’ve seen some of our past webinars.

When we finish this session, we’ll send a recording, and we’ll link to previous, webinars that we’ve run. So by all means, go through the library and have a look if you if you enjoy today. And, and our special guest, Paul Chivers, who is the managing director of risk facilitator.

As always, we need to start with a disclaimer.

As you’re aware, we’re a general insurance broker. We are licensed to provide insurance advice, but needs to be done, in a personal, setting. So this information is is purely general in nature.

Now I I mentioned it before, but our guest today, thirty plus years of risk management experience and not the sort of risk management that that I’m used to.

If you if you’re producing a TV show or doing something out of your mind, this is the first guy you’d call. So you can see there with some of the brands that he’s worked with, it’s really the who’s who, in the industry of of TV and events. So, I’d like to give a warm welcome to Paul Chivers who who joins us today. Paul, are you online? There he is. Thanks, Sam. Thank you for joining us.

Nice. Good to be with you. Thank you thank you for the the invite, mate. It’s, exciting to, be able to talk about risk.

Yeah. So you’re just fresh back from, the jungle?

I am, mate. Yep. Just, a week week back from the jungle. So, trying to keep six hundred crew safe and sound in the jungle is always challenging, but, we managed to do it again for the eleventh season, I think. So, which is always exciting. And, yeah, I don’t know how many people watched it, but I I apparently, it was it was alright.

It was alright.

We might have to we might have to do a poll later on who’s doing this.

No. Don’t do that. Don’t do that.

We’ll we’ll wrap we’ll raffle off a trip to go with you next year or something like that.

How’s that? Done.

Now did I see correctly on your Instagram, did you bring a stowaway back?

Did I I did. I did. I did.

I’m I’m thinking I’m the first time in eleven years to bring back a scorpion.

And not just any scorpion. It was one of the deadly ones that somehow managed to survive the whole trip. And I I was unpacking it on the on the bed with my girls, unpacking the my suitcase, and I just noticed something move. And here’s this huge scorpion, alive in my back after, you know, fourteen hour flight or two flights.

And, yeah, it was a bit of a shock. It was, as I found out as I was you know, I didn’t realize that. I I kinda knew that it was dangerous from what what we try and tell all our crew about, you know, different different species, but this one was actually the the bad one. So yeah.

We we managed I I kept it alive for everyone playing at home. We, we had a an expert come in and and look after it and went back to the DPI and, followed all the protocols that we needed to. So, hopefully, it’s in a better place. One of Yeah.

A very few number of species in Australia. So yeah.

There you go, mate. We don’t want a biosecurity outback, so good to get that under control.

I thought we’d start here. Now I sort of, I foreshadowed that the, the session was gonna be a little bit different to perhaps what we’ve done in the past where, you know, risk is something to be to be fearful of and and to avoid it. But, the reason we got Paul in here is to, explain that not all risk is bad. And I I hope that everybody picks that up through this whole session. So the format of the session, we’re gonna go through a bit of understanding, a bit of basis. We’re gonna learn more about Paul, some of the projects he’s worked on, understand his background, and some of the cool things he’s done. Then we’re going to, translate it into more of a practical application.

So if we can, put up the poll, just to get a feel of exactly which attendees we’ve got here.

If you can just answer that poll, let us know what your profession is, what industry you’re in, and we will make sure we’re tailoring, and that’s good. So plenty of, as as always, loads of professionals, lots of, engineers, building designers, energy raters, thermal assessors, interior designers, project managers. We’ve got some builders, IT professionals. Wonderful. This is great to get such a good cross section. So we’ll make sure and I’m acutely aware that some of the stuff that Paul’s done in the past, is not a direct translation into some of the physical risks that are faced in an office environment for professionals.

But what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna explain how these, these processes and and a way of thinking and acting can be translated into any number of different businesses.

So if there’s anything to take away from this, I want everybody to have fun, ask lots of questions because having Paul here is is a real treat.

He’s someone that businesses pay a lot of money to come and keynote speak, so we’re we’re very lucky to have him here joining us on this webinar. So, Paul, the big question, and answered very succinctly there, but what is risk?

Well, risk is, I guess, from from everyone’s point of view is very different. Do you know what I mean? And so, like, you you just told me all the the range of, participants in this session, and it’s so diverse. So if you ask that question, what is risk? People go, oh, is it safety? Is it insurance? Is it finance?

And and all those answers are right. You know, risk is everything.

But I love this definition, you know, because and this is brought about by our definition from ISO thirty one thousand, which is just the international best practice standard for risk management. But the effect of uncertainty on your objectives gets us to the point of focus, which is the word objective.

And so in your organisation, the question is, what is your objective? Are you there to manage safety, or are you there for the objective of what your business started out to be?

And we forget this a lot. A lot of the times, we’re sidetracked into this world of managing safety or managing risk versus forgetting, well, why are we what are we here to do? And if we’re if we’re doing risk management really well, it allows us to get back on track to actually trying to go after our dreams and our objectives, so to speak. So I really love this. It’s around the effect of uncertainty, all those things we don’t know about, and how they’ll actually affect our objective.

So, yeah, that for me is spot on as a definition.

Yeah. And and that’s key. And that’s really what we wanna we wanna hit home. A lot a lot of the time people in their business get too focused around, you know, worried about what may or may not happen and not focus on the wins, and that’s really what what we’re gonna look at today.

So, this is this is good. I’ve I’ve, I’ve got these quotes from Paul.

And just to elaborate further as to the why you would take risk, So, you know, from a risk management expert that as you can see there and throughout this, presentation, you’ll see a lot of images. All the images are either from Paul’s camera or from our staff members. So we’ve got no stock photos in this presentation. So if you see someone there dangling from a a high wire, that’s because is that you up there?

Yeah. That was I think that was an amazing race, actually. Just testing a, a troll in Traverse, which is a a world first, actually, in Singapore underneath Marina Bay Sands. So we Yeah.

I think that was for the amazing race, US episode six. We decided to put a cool little challenge underneath Marina Bay Sands where they had to walk along like I’m doing there. Yeah. And it was terrifying.

It’s about two hundred meters up. Terrifying. You look straight down onto a road.

That was the worst. I was my knees are shaking there. I was actually genuinely scared. It was, it was awesome.

That’s it. You look you look at a picture like that and you think, oh, it’s not too bad, and you put it in perspective. We might have needed to zoom out on that one, I think.

But but like Paul says in his in his comments there, like, risk management isn’t just about generating paperwork or or ticking boxes. It’s it’s really about the people that you’re engaging with, the questions you’re asking, and the lessons that you learn along the way. And that’s key. And and thankfully, we’re gonna learn some lessons, lessons from Paul today.

This is another project Paul was involved in, Paul. This was, this was from I’m a Celebrity.

I’m gonna roll a video, and then we’re gonna talk about it, in a second. So I’m gonna roll this video now.

So funny.

Now I can’t imagine that there are too many, pro form a procedures for people bungee jumping out of helicopters. Would that be fair to say?

Well, there actually is. There is that was a world first for South Africa, which was awesome. Yeah. But to get to that point, yeah, there’s a lot of due diligence, a lot of workshopping, a lot of sitting down with subject matter experts and consulting on what can go wrong, how can it happen, what does that mean, you know, what should we do about it? So yeah. Like, to get two two minutes of great footage on TV, we spend months months and months testing and and testing and and just huge amounts of due diligence to get to that point.

Yeah. And we’ve got a poll that we’re gonna run up now.

Just a bit of a bit of a thought provoking exercise we’re gonna do here. If we’re gonna put this poll up now, the question is, what’s the number one risk to manage here? Is it the anchor point failing or the cable snapping, ensuring the contestant can disconnect safety safely, accidentally dumping or disconnecting the contestant, or communication between the parties, pilot ground crew.

If you can put your, answers in there I don’t get to vote, do I? You don’t get to vote me.

That’s cheating.

That is cheating.

It’s fair to say without too many spoilers that they’re all important factors to consider, but, what we’re gonna do, if we can get few more getting in there.

And this is this is what I was expecting, maybe.

So just to let everybody know, we might, we’re gonna end that. Can we share those results? Yeah. We’re gonna share those results. Hopefully, everyone can see that.

Sixty two percent.

Very diligent audience, don’t we?

That’s right. Very diligent audience.

So when we spoke about this, and when you look at something like that, what is the number one thing that you look at? What’s your thought process?

Well, obviously, all the answers are right, but, obviously, I have a little bit more context than our audience.

And I love that our audience focuses on communication because in the normal environment, the number one normal challenge or contributing factor to a catastrophic event will be communications between stakeholders. That’s always the right the problem. In the circumstance of this, a lot of my time and the real risk was really around how we actually get this celebrity. And this is not a celebrity. This is test video here. But how do we get that person who’s now hanging underneath the helicopter on a bungee cord?

How do we get them on the ground?

Sorry.

And and so for me, that was that was really quite challenging. So for me, the number one risk or the exposure where there was potential to actually injure that, that person was really around the lowering of the celebrity onto the ground, and all the different variables that needed to work and actually come into play to might do that safely. Now all the other answers of, yes, the cable could snap, the helicopter could crash, all those things are just natural natural, I guess, inherent risks of doing something like this. But I know that there’s multiple redundancies on all those kind of risks. And so we’ve done our due diligence. We’ve done our checks. We know the due diligence of all those systems.

The the the systems that I I didn’t have control of, that’s what I start to get nervous about. And and I guess when we were landing, the celebrity and we had really good outcomes for all the landings, but it was a very difficult process of being able to hover the aircraft, with a person dangling. I think it was almost like a hundred meters below the aircraft. And we have to lower them gently down onto an oval without and they’re inverted. And they have to, like, you know, a a a just a meter or heat, you know, of variation could result in that that celebrity hitting the ground with a huge impact.

Yeah.

Yeah. It was really challenging. But that’s that was really for this trial was one of the the hardest things we had to manage because we had to really multiple communications between the rigor you can see in the aircraft there, the pilot, and coordinating where the aircraft was, and how they were descending.

And, yeah, it was, yeah, it was really challenging, but we managed to do it. But, yeah, that was a bit of a world first for South Africa. And yeah.

Did you catch the one?

No. I don’t like falling.

Okay. Just climbing.

I try and avoid falling exercises. I I love, doing everything that I have control of, but falling, yeah, it’s out of my control.

Yep.

And and this is this is kind of a common theme, whenever we’ve talked just generally about, risk management. But one of the things that you you sort of hop on about is is understanding the real risk is is so important to ensure that the right controls in place and not kind of being, thrown off by what, you know, the perceived risk or what you think the risk might be to really take time and analyze. So that’s something that obviously is is critical.

And, and the last point, and, and basically the whole reason I wanted to get you along today, is the third point, which is, is due diligence doesn’t need to come at the cost of creativity, opportunity or success.

That’s gonna be a theme throughout this whole presentation as we sort of tie it back into some of the the professionals that we have tuned in today. But, can you just give me high level what that kind of means to you, I suppose?

Yeah. Well, look, I’m so fortunate to work all around the world on these amazing events and TV shows and and projects because there is this high I think it’s a perception that I’m a massive risk taker. And, and I guess it is, but I look at it very differently in terms of the level of due diligence that I require to be able to do what we do is quite sometimes challenging.

And it’s very much proportionate to the risks that we take. So, you know, I think we get amazing outcomes in terms of creativity, and we have a balance between like, for TV, for example, we we need to create amazing creativity that engages the audience. And to do that, it’s normally at this sacrificing the person.

Yeah. It’s like, well, you know, someone has a vulnerability. Yes. We’re gonna play on that. And and that that’s a challenge a challenging concept, and I think that could be another whole session.

But, to do that, we need to work out and find that balance between that creativity of trying to create that, but also, okay, we need to do due diligence proportion to what we’re trying to do. So Mhmm.

You know, yeah, the opportunities that we we get are amazing. But, you know, the perception of our audience that gets to see what I do is like, oh, wow.

You just get to take risk and Yeah.

These crazy things. But they don’t get to see the due diligence behind it, which is, you know, all that consultation, the risk workshops, and the due diligence proportionate to what we’re we’re taking in terms of risk. But, but, yeah, a lot of a lot of, a lot of times in putting it back to, you know, our listeners who are, you know, on on board, you’ll see or the perception of what you think is the risk, you know, you need to look past that.

You know, perception of risk is a real challenge. Like, you know, if I said, if we just show this picture, you know, the audience might go, well, okay. Yeah. There’s a rope.

He’s connected to a rope. Okay. That seems pretty safe. What’s there’s no context around what this is.

And I guess in risk management, I find we get to review a lot of risk documents and risk due diligence. And the biggest flaw in all these documents is, I guess, people’s perception. They jump to their own emotional feelings to what they think the risk is versus actually using an evidence based approach to identifying what real risk is and those, causal factors or contributors.

So that’s what I I really find is a a challenge. And, you know, if anyone can take things away is just ask the question, is that the real risk or is that a perceived risk?

Because I’m sure our audience have this challenge all the time that people are identifying risks, therefore, spending money on controls that are a waste of time, and and people come back after the fact and go, oh, wow. We just spent all this money on these controls, and it didn’t work.

Yep. And and and to be honest, even insurance companies aren’t the best at that. You know, you’re still dealing with people that are that are flawed, not necessarily, you know, risk management, experts, but actuaries that are looking at historical data that might not understand where the times have changed. And I think particularly for, the people tuning in, that’s something that that can be a battle.

And certainly where we try to act as a bit of an in between and by running sessions like this, it helps provoke that that deeper thought, and consider. And and, yeah, from an insurance point of view, sometimes you actually need to educate the clients. So we’ll, we’ll get into that a little bit more with some tools that you can that you can use and and ways to, you know, mitigate or or control risk.

A big thing also, from your side of thing, Paul, and something that we’ve talked once again, a fair bit about is, is the human factor.

And you made a, you gave me a really good example yesterday when we talked, and, and the, the situation of, where the, where the human and, and where we’re talking about the helicopter and airplane crash over in the US and, you know, everybody was quick to blame the pilots.

But your biggest takeaway was, okay, well, we understand there may have been pilot error, but what systems failed the people? So human factors, obviously, there’s an element of risk that comes with being human. So you’re not gonna eliminate that completely.

Talk to us a little bit about how the human element comes into play.

Yeah. Well, look in, in, I guess, safety science, human factors have been studied for a very long time. And, I think to summarize it, what we know is, is humans make error. That’s very normal.

And we tend to forget that in all our safety work we do.

And, what we have to understand is normally, you could always say, look, everyone who’s listening, just think about the last incident or accident that occurred. And I guarantee you could go, yes. That was Dave’s fault. That was Sarah’s fault. That was because of that. Instead, we really need to flip that concept of saying, okay. What system failed that person?

Because that’s what I’m interested in. Because that person that you said has failed is just normal. That is just normal. And our obligation is to make sure the system didn’t fail them, and we create an environment where systems can actually fail, but people are not hurt. And so that’s that’s a really important point, I think, around, you know, creating environment where behaviors can be managed and people don’t get hurt, and focus on the systems that fail our people versus blaming, you know, looking at people as the problem to try and solve. You know?

Yep. Yeah. We’ll you will never solve that problem. Nobody’s perfect. That’s just everybody here that runs a business with, other themselves or staff.

Like like you said, everybody makes mistakes. We all make mistakes. So, yeah, I think that’s, that’s another key takeaway from this session is, what you’re focusing on. So we’ve talked a lot about risk, what it is and whatnot.

I wanted to talk about the benefits of risk taking, because like you said, Paul, it’s opened a lot of doors, a lot of opportunity, creativity, and particularly for our, our audience here, we’ve listed a few things that, you know, by taking risks will be a benefit of your business.

You know, greater innovation of creativity.

All these, you know, massive buildings and crazy architectural pieces didn’t exist before they did. So it took someone to, you know, go out on a limb and and wanna actually have a crack at that same thing with, sustainable housing. You know, nobody thought you could build a ten star home until you could. So, all those sorts of things, it takes, you know, a person or a group of people to really go out and drive that train change before it becomes the norm.

And then you can develop and build controls around it. So, if if not for the innovation and creativity, but the competitive advantage against your peers as well, you know, client expectations, you might be able to produce something that they never thought imaginable that they couldn’t even dream of.

You yourself, when you push into an uncomfortable area of something you may not have done or may not have been, widely accepted, you learn and grow as a professional and, and as a person. And that’s something that you can then teach another generation.

You’re making informed decisions because you understand the risk, which is absolutely critical.

You know, there’s, we’re not standing here saying, well, go out and do something crazy. It’s do something crazy, but, make sure it’s informed. You’re considering, you know, all the possible outcomes.

This is a big one regulatory and industry standards. Like I said, these, these things don’t exist until people push for change. And when they do, then the regulators have to catch up, whether that be, you know, national construction code or, or whatever it may be.

These are the things that push change forward and make, make us better as a, as a society.

And, and obviously it goes without saying, the more you push yourself and challenge yourself, you become adaptable and resilient to things that come up in the future.

Is there anything else you think we’ve left off there, Paul, in terms of benefit?

No, I think, I think you’re spot on there.

I think for our audience, just think back to every situation that you’ve got to know. It’s easy to say no than to say yes.

Definitely.

So, you know, it’s yeah. Like, yeah, it’s really pushing the boundaries. All these, benefits from risk are, you know, which is why I got into risk management. I would have never thought I’d be in this space. Never. You know, at fifteen, I was running an adventure company doing crazy stuff. So to think, you know, I get to write, you know, graduate certificates in risk management and educate and do all this fun stuff is crazy, but it it it’s really around I think the trick is actually just, making risk management digestible for just the normal people to say, guys, this is not rocket science.

Yeah. Well, Paul’s living proof. He’s just a a regular good dude. I mean, I don’t know what everyone was expecting with the risk manager if he was gonna be this laid back and cool.

I can get I can get a bit nerdy if you want. We can get back to the gym at all.

Oh, jeez. We might have to have a second.

And everyone will just drop it out.

Yeah. That’s it.

So what does it look like for our audience? And we talk about the benefits, but in practicality, you know, we’re talking about different materials. We’re talking about bold aesthetic choices, sustainability, unconventional designs, you know, vision versus practicality. We’re integrating tech.

That’s a big one. Like, tech, you know, if if people were worried about not taking risks, then Uber wouldn’t exist because Uber came out to Australia and I believe it was probably illegal. I think they had a class action from the taxis. So, you know, if they’d have thought, well, no, we can’t do that, then Uber wouldn’t exist and we wouldn’t have, half the stuff we have today.

Time constraints, you know, how quickly can we build buildings these days? You know, prefab, all that sort of stuff.

Once again, prototypes, sensitivity to cultural needs and understanding, and, and, you know, minimalist design. So in a, in a design engineering space, that’s really what we’re, what we’re talking about.

And from Paul, when you, when you start assessing risk or considering these things I love that picture, by the way. What what is that structure? Dare I ask?

Again, that’s in Singapore. I think in one of the series for that. Again, that’s amazing race because some they love Singapore. Yep.

But that’s on, the Singapore, flyer, the wheel, the big Ah, okay. Yeah.

And so we just Not that the tourist guy, though, by the look of that.

No. No. Not that one. So that yeah. That we I think for the US series, we just wanted to do again, another world first. We wanted to as the Ferris wheel’s going around, we wanted to, have them hop out of the capsule and then walk across, a ladder as it’s moving and then jump back in the capsule.

So, yeah, that was a really technical rig and challenging and engineering wise, legal and due diligence wise working with government just to get to a point where, technically, the rigging stuff’s really quite simple in terms of, okay, this this is easy.

But just to get it to happen, happen, like and I’m I’m look. I guess why everyone’s listening is this. They have everyone has the same problems. Like, you just wanna do something really simple. But to make something happen, you know, what you have to go through the hoops, you have to jump through. I’m not a fan of that. So I’m not a fan of creating complexity for the sake of complexity.

Mhmm. You know, a true risk manager should be the person that removes, and their job is to remove complexity to make your life easier. So all those people listening, if you all got consultants helping you, challenge them to actually, hey. If you’re not making my life easier, we’re not using you guys.

Because Mhmm. That’s that’s what we should be doing. Like, our job is to know the fast way of doing things, but the due diligent way of doing things. How to make your life more efficient, how to be diligent at the same time.

But remove complexity. You know? Complexity is one of those really good contributing factors to accidents and incidents because it’s just it’s too hard basket. We make we set ourselves up to fail all the time through complexity.

You you might need to start consulting to a few councils.

I reckon there’d be a few, possibly popular.

I already have I have one. We’re not gonna name them.

And, it’s it’s, councils are always challenging. But look, it’s it’s it’s you need people to step up and and take risk ultimately and say, okay. Can we do this differently? And I guess, you know, you guys should all be thinking and asking this question. What can I do different? Or do I just do what everyone else does? Think about every documentation, like, let’s say, for council or any of your workplaces.

You request a document.

Why? I’m that person who asks, why did you ask for a risk assessment?

Oh, it’s because we that’s what we do. We ask for a risk as but why?

And and, like, if you can’t answer these questions, don’t do it. Like, I always say, why why are you doing this if you don’t know why? Find out why and understand why. Understand what you’re asking for. Understand how to read what you’re asking for.

Otherwise it’s a waste of time, you know? So again, that’s all around complexity. If people thinking they need things, you know?

Yeah.

So what is it that you’re looking for? Like obviously these, these sorts of projects and whether it be large or small, what, what is your thought process? Take us behind the scenes into your life.

Yeah. So look, I guess I’ve got on here like risk and I’ve spoken about this already.

You know, real risk versus perception. I’m really interested in getting to that. So to do that, I really focus on evidence based risks. So, and a lot of times it’s a forensic style approach. So, like, four challenges you see on TV, we take this kind of forensic approach to analyzing what could go wrong. So, let’s look, for example, like, I’m a celebrity when we do challenges, crazy challenges.

I’ll test, we cross reference biomechanics of the activity with, you know, medical prescreening of contestants.

We you know, for example, someone might have had hip surgery or, a broken arm or something like that, and then we cross reference it with the activity and look at the biomechanical scenarios that could eventuate. And we also used a lot of technology to, analyze g force impact, to actually get a indication of what kind of forces in that activity can we generate and how that will relate to that specific person, their age, and their preexisting medical condition. So all this information just to for someone to do a silly challenge.

Now this is not what every TV show does. But, you know, for me, this is what I like to do to have confidence that we’re managing foreseeable risks and we’re putting reasonable controls in place. Yes.

You know, we’re gonna have people break bones. We’re gonna have injuries, bruises. But, again, it’s like I was saying before, it’s about creating environment where mistakes can happen and we can learn from them, and we can understand consequence versus trying to rule out the ability to actually have anything go wrong, which for me is what’s the point? You know, if we’re not evolving and learning from the excitement of taking risk, then what are we here to do?

You know, this is Yeah. This is not what I signed up for. So, yeah, that’s a really important one. Control effectiveness.

Again, I when I look at risk assessments, I really kinda jump straight to the controls that have been listed, and I asked the question, do you have evidence around that control being effective? So you look at let’s say, most of you will be familiar with safe work method statements, you know, and you’ll list all these amazing controls that you’ll have in place. Who goes back and checks that the control was actually in place? Was it effective or was it not effective? And what should we do about it next time? We never do that. You know, I spent a lot of time on control effectiveness.

Again, like I was mentioning before, systems failing and and focusing on not focusing on why people fail. I know that that’s a given. Let’s focus what system failed the person.

The concept of, and care of Sydney Decker here is around, who’s a human factor specialist.

How work is done, not imagined. So this is really getting to the pointy end of how work is actually done versus how it’s imagined. So if you’re at the pointy end end of doing the job, that’s the most critical information, and we should be gathering that information versus telling these people how work should be done from not actually understanding how it is done. So, yeah, really, really important concept.

And like I said, creating environments where mistakes can happen really, really important. And that last one there is around, the interconnectivity of risk, which I guess is the gray area between, consultants. And all of you listening will be familiar with having multiple stakeholders or subcontractors working in an environment. And you know the biggest risk is the integration piece.

You know? Are the people manage is that subcontractor actually you know, how are they managing their risks? And so this subcontractor over here, how they managing their risk? But the problem is, are those two subcontractors talking to each other, and what risks are induced from that interconnectivity?

So, yeah, interconnected, risks are a big one for me. I kinda target I like really focusing on them and work out okay. Because all their individual parties and operators normally manage their risk really quite well. It’s actually that that bringing them together where we induce new risks. You know?

Yeah. And I think that’s really good. And, we, for those of you that I know contractors, sub consultants is always, always, always a hot topic. And if you weren’t, present during our webinar last year on, managing contract risks and other risk management, that’s, they’re really good ones to touch back because that really goes through what Paul was talking about there.

Understanding where, you know, how to manage contractors, who’s responsible for what, and giving you some really good tips and tools, to do that. So that’s a that’s a really nice, segue into some of the controls. And I know I’m mindful that I don’t wanna be using too much, too much lingo. We’re keeping it, as generic as we can. When we talk about controls, it’s it’s ways to, you know, control or mitigate risk.

So we’ve got a bit of a, got a bit of a list there. So, hopefully, as Paul’s been talking, you’ve you’ve been trying to think of ways that this applies to your business.

These are some really, really kind of good places to start, with your risk management. So most people, most businesses, particularly that employ people, would be familiar with, you know, design reviews, peer checks.

Talk about compliance with codes and standards. And look, a lot of this stuff you’re probably thinking, well, I do that anyway.

And, and that’s good. Cause this is just a reminder to be, to, to sort of say, look, you’re doing the right thing. You’re on the right Page.

You, we know that you adhere to the codes and the standards because that’s what you have to do to be compliant.

We talk about risk assessments and hazard identification. It depends on once you’ve analyzed and assessed your risk is, you know, what, what are we gonna kind of do about it? We talk about document management systems.

That’s something that Paul gets involved with a lot.

Once again, depending on the level of risk as to what controls you’re going to put in place. And we’ve got a really nice graphic that that’s going to go into that a little further later on.

Being clear with clients on communication and scope. Once again, heading back to one of our webinars we did last year, it’s being very clear about what’s documented, what the client’s expectations are, and making sure that the services that you’re offering are in line with what the client is expecting.

Some of the best tools, and Paul, correct me if I’m wrong, but when we talk about systems, and system based risk management, you know, software and automation are some of the best ways that you can manage risks on on a volume basis. And unlike the people, the software doesn’t tend to get as tired or fatigued and doesn’t tend to mind working on a Sunday or late at night. So, yeah. Where, where possible, you know, using some of that automated and integrated, safety checks and compliance is, is super beneficial.

Continuous professional development, exactly what you’re doing here today. You know, everybody that has joined this session and wants to learn more about it, even if you’re just here for the CPD, good on you. But this is the type of thing that will broaden your knowledge and understanding, to make you more effective with with your business and hopefully, avoid or mitigate issues in the, in the future.

We talk about quality assurance and quality control, documentation.

You know, that’s, that’s the, the processes and, and, and whatnot that go around your business.

And then third party orders, depending on what you’re doing. So our business, for example, we’re in financial services. We have no choice. We have to be audited by third parties in the design and engineering space. That may be something that you do, or you don’t do.

Depending on once again, the level of complexity with your role, you know, if you’re, you know, Drawing or, designing, a shed for a backyard, that’s five square meters. You’re probably not going to use a third party audit, but if you’re building a fifty story skyscraper, you probably are.

And that’s what we sort of talk about here when we’re going on to risk due diligence.

And and Paul, I think you will eloquite this better than me, if that’s the correct correct word for it.

Just explain this, this idea, I suppose. And and what we’re talking about here with the level of risk proportionate to the level of due diligence and the level of, you know, risk tool or documentation you’d apply.

Yeah. So I think I I just this is very simple diagram. I did this once for a client just to make sense of, you know, our approach.

But I think, just looking at it, it basically looks at, you know, the level of risks that we’re all used to this kind of level of risk on the left hand side there.

Right down the bottom is low risk green, and then right up the top is red.

But what we need to do is then look at, okay. Well, what level of due diligence should we apply depending on that level of risk? So you can see, oh, well, if that was, at red and it was quite high, then, you know, what we tend to do is we wanna try and make sure that the due diligence is is proportionate to the actual risk level, and we wanna make sure that the tools that we use to manage risk are also suitable.

Now give some examples of that. So for example, if we’re, you know, operating, some high risk, activities, then, risk assessment and documented evidence of and so those are the tools that we might use, like risk assessments, a formal, safe work method statement, or whatever that is demonstrates or reflects the level of, risk that we’re taking. So, yeah, really important that we try and balance it up. Where we get it wrong is when the risk is low or medium, we tend to do the same amount. So, most of you would be, like, I the amount of, like, safe work method statements, for example, people ask for them, and we forget, that was only for high risk work. But we now do safe work method statements for everything.

Yeah.

That’s a great example of, like, guys, that’s not a proportionate tool. It’s not the right tool for the job. You know? Mhmm. A lot of people don’t know risk assessment can be in different forms other than just a risk matrix. A little most people go, I’m gonna do a risk matrix and register, calculate like there’s other forms of techniques which are endorsed by ISO thirty one thousand. So, you know, you can do a structured interview, you know, with stakeholders and document those minutes, and that that’s classified as a a way of identifying risks.

Mhmm.

You know what I mean?

So I think it’s it’s really important that we learn as an audience to go, okay. Let’s pick the right tools. Otherwise, what are we doing? We’re creating complexity.

Exactly.

That’s how we get to the point of risk is just it’s too much. We gotta do all these documents. You don’t. You just gotta pick the right tool.

So That’s right. This is what this is really about.

Trying to explain is just be proportionate with your approach.

Definitely. And that’s and that’s another big take home that we want, everybody to leave here today with, you know, taking risk as we’ve seen is not a bad thing, but if you do it, you need to do it sensibly. And, and that’s what we’re saying here is, you know, a green level of risk doesn’t constitute a red level of due diligence and risk tool. Like Paul said, we’re wasting time. We’re bottling up. We’re, we’re taking our time away from the things that we really should be doing, and really should be focusing on.

Here are some, some good tips for managing risk in your business.

And I’ve tried to identify what I think will be the most important. So, just a reminder that we will send everybody a copy of of this recording. So if you don’t, get a chance to take notes here, that’s fine. We’ll, we’ll make sure that you get a copy of it.

These are some good teeth. So, Paul, the red writing up the top, and this is these are words from a far wiser person than me, I e u.

So the effectiveness of risk management will depend on its integration into the governance of the organization, including decision making. This requires support from stakeholders, particularly top management.

Can you just talk about that a little bit? Because I know you talk a lot about, you know, a safety culture and, some of the examples we’ve discussed, you know, off off camera of of potentially places that may not have that culture.

What does it kinda mean to you?

Look. I think the key the key takeaway from that statement is understanding the importance of executive buying.

I’ve worked with lots of companies where we just fill the gaps with paperwork. Can you punch out risk assessments? Can you just do documentation for checking boxes versus actually having, real intent? And that intent is driven from the top.

Having the executive and board buy into why we need to manage risk. And and, like, for you guys, if you have if you feel that your your organization, your executive, your board doesn’t have buy in, you need to look at how you communicate, what language are you using, you know. Because if, like, when I have chances to sit down with executives and boards and I go and we talk about, hey. Risk management, all of this is about improving your decision making capabilities so that you I can give you confidence that you’re gonna get better decisions.

And what’s that mean for the business?

Do you know what I mean? It it just it’s a great it’s a great kicker. So I think a lot of times too, like, I I I dilute risk management language. I hate showing risk assessments. I hate showing the jargon of risk management when I’m trying to embed risk management.

Yeah. Because really, when you look at workers, workers are just everyone who everyone humans are just amazing risk takers. They’re amazing risk managers intuitively.

And so but we have to, and I think I blame consultants. I blame myself for trying to put, language behind just the normal day to day operations.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Definitely.

And so yeah. So getting back to, like, for me, you know, executive buying is a massive one. If you don’t have it, then all your risk management due diligence is a waste of time. It really is. You need to have executive support, buy in, and and drive from, the top, because normally, the people at the pointy end know exactly what the risks are. They know exactly the problems, and they have the exact solutions. The problem is executive not normally having systems or tools to be able to listen to them effectively.

Yep.

And look, that’s if everybody’s, you know, everybody tuning in that’s either a sole trader or running a small business. If you’re thinking, you know, oh, well, who who’s gonna do it for me? The answer is no one it’s it’s you, no, one’s going to come and do this. There’s going to be tools that you’re able to help.

You’ll be able to lean on associations. You’ll be laid out, will lean on your, you know, your insurance advisors, things like that. But at the end of the day, the person best equipped to manage the risk in your business is you. Because like Paul said, you know, the ins and the outs, the day to day operation and the way that you view it.

And particularly if you have staff, they’re going to apply the same attitude.

So we get down to the the human factors again. If you’re kind of blase, then guess what? Your staff probably will be, but they may take it even further.

So very, very critical.

So here’s some, if you haven’t read on already, here’s some nice tips for managing, managing risks in your business. And hopefully you probably do a lot of this already. Obviously the training and education, that’s something that we spoke about.

Always when you bring on new staff or, change kind of what you’re doing, making sure that you’re, you’re well trained in the area you’re working everyone, you know, we, you can, you can limit, limit authority. You can delegate authority within your own business. That’s another nice way of of kind of managing it.

Clear communication, you know, somewhere where your employees feel comfortable to report risks or concerns, and that’s coming back to that cultural piece.

You know, if, if you, if you staff are absolutely terrified or if you’re terrified to admit when you made a mistake, guess what? It’s not gonna get any better.

That’s where it’s, you know, picking up the phone or the talking to me. I’m a a good good sounding board for that. Particularly if it’s if it’s a professional issue, that’s something that I’ll absolutely help you out with.

As Paul mentioned, having your business as a safety culture, not necessarily over the top with risk management, but something that encourages and embraces risk and, and takes a proactive and practical, approach, identifying where you, where the human errors can be and implement as many systems or tools, smartly to identify them, you know, automate where you can file safes checklists, that sort of stuff. But, don’t just have pointless box ticking exercises that you’re not going to do anything with or review or stay on top of.

As Paul mentioned, the the leadership is huge.

Management leading by example, demonstrating the commitment, and, you know, constant communication within the business. This this applies to using contractors as well, sub consultants, or your general involvement in a project, whether it be, you know, appointed by a client to manage a project or by a builder to manage a project, making sure that all the stakeholders, have similar, views when it comes to managing risk. Because, you know, if you’re working with, you know, a builder or a homeowner that’s completely blase and you’re not, then that is probably gonna end in tears.

The psychosocial factors, you know, fatigue morale, like I said, the, the robots don’t mind working later on the weekends, but, but people often do, just be mindful that, that how hard people working or other factors within their work life can impact this.

So just making sure as a leader or a, or a company owner that you are well and truly across that, and helping out your, your staff wherever you can.

Continuous improvement goes without saying, this is not something to just go and download a risk matrix and, and do your severity and likelihood in a nice graph and color code it and then stick it in a drawer and not look at it again. This is something that you should be incorporating in day to day business, whether that be with, you know, systems processes, people, education, all that sort of staff, attending webinars like this, speaking with the associations, are all great ways to make sure your business is, is continually continually improving. Because in reality, the world is continually changing. The materials that that, you know, construction, companies are using is changing. The rules and regulations as to what you may or may not be able to build are changing.

AI is is here in a big way. If you’re in the information technology space, how do you embrace it? How do you manage it?

Understanding new and emerging threats, you know, cyber threats, online threats. If you wanna bury your head and and pretend they don’t exist, then you will probably be a very good target, for those sorts of things. And and particularly when we’re talking in the cyber space, no business is too big or too small, to be extorted or hacked or in in fact, it’s almost more likely that the SMEs, get targeted. So yeah, these, these are all things that you can, invest time and energy into to making your business better.

A few things that we want to leave you with. And Paul kind of touched on this, and this is, this is the pat on the back, Paul. So as you said, intuitively, humans are pretty awesome with managing risk some better than others.

In your experiences, is it, is this these words are true?

Yeah. Definitely.

Definitely. We don’t give I guess, we don’t allow common sense to prevail, and the argument is, yes, common sense is not that common.

But, again, it just gets back to that. Allow your people to do the work that they need to do.

And so if you go if if you’re fortunate enough to to run a business and have people work for you, ask that question.

How do I build a system? How do I create an environment that allows my people to do their best work? And when you you sit back and look at that, you’ll realize, wow, I need to create systems that effectively help them work better, faster, more efficiently.

And that’s ultimately what good risk management is. Bad risk management is when we create complexity, we slow you down, we make you fill out forms, You tick boxes. It delays you. So if if you’re going through that, I can guarantee all of you, you’ve got bad risk management.

Mhmm.

Gotta start to rethink your approach to to to to how you do risk management because it doesn’t need to be like that.

Yeah. Definitely. I’ll leave I’ll leave you to read this quote poll.

Oh, this is by Sydney Decker as well. The human being steams a threat five times faster than a reward. Yeah. We live in a a world that creates complex procedures to avoid these threats. Ultimately, this, this absolutely, I guess, yeah, for me, this is this is crazy. Like, Decca my point before was Decca did some amazing studies around what complexity does for the work environment.

And and through this study, and I wish we had time to go into this, but he actually found that ninety nine point nine percent of the time things go right now I don’t know if this is a good thing that we disclose this.

But, As as insurance and risk advisers, it’s not what we wanna do.

Yeah. Like Come on. When I read this, I just I think straight back to his study, and I just go, oh, wow. Ninety nine point nine percent of the time, things go right.

So why do we put all this energy and time and money waiting for the things that go wrong?

Mhmm.

We actually invest time and focus, like, all our energy on the things that actually go right and try and replicate it.

Yeah.

So, you know, this is this is what I I I love about this, is is really around the focus of shifting our focus from worrying about all the things that could go wrong. Let’s actually try and replicate the things that go right. So if you could take anything away in your business and and think about this, I think that’s what I would I would look at.

Yeah. Definitely.

Now a bit of a bit of a plug for Paul. He probably didn’t know this is coming, but I’m doing it anyway. We’ll send you out a link to Paul’s website. He’s actually got some nice little, learning modules on his, risk facilitator website. So you’re welcome to, jump on there ahead of time or we’ll make sure we send out a link when we send the recording and the thank you.

It’ll be, yeah, have a look at them. You can do them on your, on your phone or on a desktop either way.

Enjoy them. I’ve I found them insightful. I learned a lot. And, Paul’s obviously spent a lot of time.

He’s got a lot of experience. So, getting on there, and playing with that for everybody, for CPD, we’ll probably get those certificates out in the next, two weeks. We just need to collate all the information. We’ll make sure we email those certificates out so Ron can pass them on to their association for those that are, attributing, into, contributing, attributing CPD from the association.

So, Paul, we’re about to open it up for questions.

I’ve gotta I’ve gotta hear what what’s been either your wildest story or your most complicated challenge that you’ve had to overcome professionally. We’ll get through this and then we’ll, if you have questions, post them in the, the question box, but we’re about to hear.

I’ve put Paul on the spot, what his craziest experience has been, or the hardest thing he’s had to overcome.

Oh, wow. That’s really hard. I’m just gonna go back to the last well, I’ve just got off I’m a Celebrity. So, challenging, I think, probably, you know, managing nature, is a really challenging thing for me.

So knowing that we have crocodiles and hippos in in areas where, you know, in orders that we have people in is a really hard concept for me to manage. Now through good due diligence, we have amazing controls, but there is that zero point zero zero one percent chance that something could go wrong, and I and I hate that. Yes. Yeah.

So, it’s, yeah. That that’s always challenging for me is is I’m always focused on that zero point zero zero one percent of something going wrong.

Yep.

So I really I, it’s hard because you can only do what’s reasonably practicable to to reduce the risk. And and, oh, yes. I do it all, but it’s still it it it’s still one of those challenges. So yeah. Anything to do with the environment is is is, complex and and challenging.

Is there anything that you’ve turned down because it’s just too wild?

Not so. Concepts I never turned down. I love all concepts. I think the clients that come to me, make the decision for them if because, like, I I’m very clear with the controls and the due diligence that’s required to make something happen.

So Mhmm. If they can’t meet that expectation, I’m not really interested in going down that path and creating something awesome. So a lot of people have amazing ideas, but don’t have necessarily the proportion of due diligence to to back it. That’s right.

That’s where I’ll I’ll normally, you know, all the clients the clients would normally come to the conclusion that, oh, maybe this is not the right approach or maybe I just need to go on a different avenue. So, like, normally, you know you know, I I suggest to clients, alternatives, you know, which suit and reflect their budgets, if that makes sense. Yeah. All their ideas and creatives.

Are there any upcoming projects that you’re allowed to talk about?

Nope. Nope.

No. Lots of lots of exciting TV shows always in the wings. We’ve got, we’ve got some oh, we’ve got an interesting one. I’ll I’ll put it out there maybe with, a big Hollywood director, maybe around Titanic and, and some really interesting approaches to, psychosocial stuff. So, yeah, that’ll that’ll be watch the Netflix space maybe in the next, you know, two years.

Okay. We’ll see. And just going back to some of the TV shows, like I’m a slab and you talk about crocodiles and hippos being, you know, Challenging because a lot of the unknown you watch these things on TV and I think we’ve become desensitized and think that.

Well, it’s a TV show, so it’s not real. And perhaps that’s because other TV shows in the reality space are not all that real. Would it be fair to say that, say, on I’m a Celeb, it’s it’s a legitimately dangerous environment?

Yeah. One hundred percent. So the perception is a lot of people actually think that the show is filmed I’ve seen, like, comments around it’s filmed in Blue Mountains, and it’s like Yeah. They all stay in accommodation.

And and it’s that’s so far from the truth. It’s it’s, you know, six hundred crew in the heart of the jungles of South Africa, thirty minutes from Kruger.

We have, hippos where crews stay. We have hippos that sometimes jump in your pool. Some people have pools in their their, like, little I would call them amazing pools, but you’ll have you wake up and have a hippo in the back pool. Or, we have rivers, you know, within probably a hundred meters from your accommodation where there are crocodiles and there are hippos in there. We have baboons. We have leopards. We have wild dog.

All of these are within the areas that we actually operate in. So yeah. It inherently, it’s a really high risk environment. But Yeah.

ASO is going for a surf in Yeah.

Brea, which, you know, if I’m in in in South Africa working the cruise over there, they’ll go, you’re nuts.

Yeah. Yeah.

I surf every day, and they think I’m absolutely crazy. And I sit there going, yeah.

You have spitting cobras Yeah.

Which we come across, and you have scorpions. All this crazy stuff.

Yeah.

And I think that they’re crazy. So, again, it gets back to that perception of what you think the real risk is.

And Yeah.

So yeah. So yeah. It really is a high risk environment.

However, we we the team we have is just amazing, and we do an amazing job at putting amazing controls in place, making sure they remain effective throughout the production, which is the hardest thing. You know?

Yeah. We’ve got a, we’ve got a question come through.

Do you agree with the term risk appetite as an idea, or is it just a corporate buzzword to justify taking unnecessary risk or avoiding them altogether?

I’ll look, risk appetite is a is a definition to really help someone articulate what is an organization’s, appetite. So how much risk am I gonna take on as an organization? So I think it’s a good, robust terminology.

How an organization comes to the conclusion of what their risk appetite is. That’s what I’m interested in. Like, that’s it’s not a I think organizations use it as a mother would statement and say, hey. This is our risk appetite.

We’re prepared to take risk in this area, this area, and we’re not prepared to take risk here. So it’s really around if you’re using a risk matrix in your organization. A risk appetite is how you come to the conclusion of, risk levels. Do you know what I mean?

So if you look at a risk matrix, your appetite would be argue you would argue that your risk levels, so you’re which are in your matrix, are generated around your appetite for taking risks. So that’s the relationship. So it is it is a robust terminology, but I think yeah. You gotta look at your organization, see if fit for purpose.

Yeah. And we and we come across that risk appetite is such a common thing in the insurance industry. And and and people that have applied, particularly for professional indemnity insurance, will have been told at some stage during their professional career that that their business may or may not have been outside the insurer’s risk appetite. And speaking from an insurance point of view, that can be driven by any number of things. It’s not necessarily the level of risk associated with it as much as their desire, willingness, or expertise to handle whatever that business is that we’re talking about.

It may be because they don’t have a suitable product.

More often than not, it’ll probably because they don’t have reinsurance for it. So if you think about a lot of the, the issues up in, you know, New South Wales and Queensland with flooding, where insurers say we don’t have a risk appetite for covering flood, for example, that will be because if they provide insurance, they won’t have, reinsurance on it. So if they pay a catastrophe and it costs them many hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, they’re not insured for that themselves. So I think when we taught risk, risk appetite, we still need to remember in an insurance context that the insurance companies are commercial businesses as well. If they don’t see it as being something that they want to make money off of, or, an industry they want to get in, they just simply won’t do it. And they will use the term it’s outside risk appetite or outside underwriting guidelines.

Very, very broadly.

Just to wrap up Paul, knowing that you are a small business yourself, what’s what’s sort of one thing that, that you could do today to make a positive change?

Oh, I think if I’m a small business is, is it’s a really around, understanding the controls that I’ve put in place in my own business to make sure that I can have successful outcomes.

So do you know what I mean? Like, for me, being a small business, I just like any business, you wanna know that the controls you put in place are gonna get you through. You know? Will they remain effective?

Do I have enough systems to alert me to when my controls are failing? You know? That’s what it’s about. It’s, you know, everything is around.

You’ve gotta prove that you have controls in place.

So for me, you know, as a small business, just ask the question of yourself. Do I have the right controls in place?

And how do I monitor them? How do I make sure they remain effective? Because soon as they become not effective, guess what? It all starts hitting the fan.

Things happen, and you’ll be out of business pretty quick. And so for me, yeah, like, it’s spend a lot of time just going asking that question. Control effectiveness. Control effectiveness.

You know?

Yep. Wow. That’s, quite a session. I hope everybody is, is feeling a little bit better out about their, risk management.

Yeah. Like I said, to start with, we, we want it to be a little bit different and not to, you know, scare everybody completely, but just really encourage you that, you know, more often than not, you’re doing the right thing.

I mean, my experience in dealing with a lot of people that are clients of ours, you know, touch wood, everything, everything goes generally to plan. So, just to wrap up today, I really, really, really sincerely wanna thank thank you, Paul.

Like I said, we don’t take it lightly that your time is incredibly valuable. We’re very lucky to to have you here. And, and on behalf of everybody that’s, that’s watching this live and everybody that’s going to watch the recording. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, for imparting your wisdom and, and giving us some of your time today.

My absolute pleasure. And and, mate, thank you for inviting me.

Anytime.

If anybody has quest questions after the fact, by all means, email them through.

We will send out CPD certificates, hopefully in the next, two weeks. We will get the recording edited and done. And so you can feel free to share it throughout your networks wide and far.

Yeah. Thanks again, everybody. We really love, we really love running these sessions. If you’ve got ideas for future content, by all means, send them through.

Thank you very much for your time and thank you again, Paul.

Thank you guys.